Anuradha SenGupta: Medha Patkar is taking the fight against the Sardar Sarovar Dam back to where it started. Her ‘pole khol yatra' through villages dotting the Narmada is said to expose the claims of the Madhya Pradesh Government. With the Supreme Court deadline on May 1, Patkar is a woman in a hurry. The Prime Minister's new three member committee does little to give her hope.
Medha Patkar: Even when the government formed a new committee, it would have been better if they had discussed it with us about the members of the committee and the whole process. The main thing is suspending the work because the work that is going on will be completed in May, it is supposed to be completed by May end and that is irreversible. That will bring waters into all these villages around the river.
Anuradha SenGupta: The next stop is Chota Bardha, it is past midnight when we reach. The welcome party has nodded off but that doesn't stop them from serving up a wedding feast. Chota Bardha has been waking up by the Narmada for about 400 years now. Farming, the key source of livelihood is possible all year around, thanks to lift irrigation, and that gives migrant adivasis and neighbouring villagers work as well. It's the way of life here that Medha Patkar is trying to protect.
You are more than aware of how criticism leveled against you and the Narmada Bachao Andolan (NBA) for obstructing and resettlement rehabilitation work. Because the ultimate goal for the NBA and for what you believe in is really to obstruct the dam isn't it? So, it suits you not to have resettlement and rehabilitation measures carried out successfully.
Medha Patkar: See people talk about it both ways, one thing is that our position on the issues of water management is not hidden. But at the same time, when we take a position, whether in the urban area or here in the dam affected areas we consider this project and this situation very specifically. And we know that only because we intervened, so hundreds and thousands of people could come on record. It is because of this that the Government at least started accepting the fact it is the Government that will have to identify land and give land.
Anuradha SenGupta: How much have you managed to convince the people who you represent, the people of Narmada valley, about your development philosophy? Because last night at Dharampuri I heard one of the speakers from the village and he talked about how humko dam se koi problem nahi hai, virodh nahi hai, hum sirf hamara punar nivas chahate hai. My question to you Medha tai is how do you take the grass root person along to understand your development policies.
Medha Patkar: Dharampuri has, too, much politics and it hasn't really jumped into the NBA as such, it's a bit different. And yet I would say that now the situation is that the Government is imposing displacement on people. So in such a situation the people are bound to take this position. You know NBA is also taking a position that if you are going to impose rehabilitation called displacement then you will have to show that the rehabilitation is completed. And we are not obstructing it. But of course the challenge is by us, but the challenge is by the law to the governments. When the governments themselves are claiming that there's land and everything is fine and it's only obstruction is by the andolan. Everyone in the valley knows that it's the Government's flaw, incapacity, lack of land and corruption that has stalled the rehabilitation process.
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Anuradha SenGupta: This is my first time in the Narmada valley. The few villages that we have seen, if there was no issue of the dam, would you say that these villages are the best that they can be in terms of their sanitation, basic living conditions. What is your suggestion for the development for these villages?
Medha Patkar: No village in India is really ideal. But that does not mean that the village should be just a killed as community or thrown out. If that is to be developed then so many things can happen you know. Today we are in the plains and even here, as you said, sanitation is lacking, water recharging is possible but that is not done because as all the water that goes into the river is now flowing to the west, is coming from the catchments area that is passing through the fields and the roofs.
All of these natural resources, whether it is agricultural land or water should be used in a sustainable manner with the first priority given to fulfilling the basic needs of every person in the community. Here in Chota Bardhapur for example, there are these houses that belong to the boatmen and the fish workers. Now, they are here since generations, they have their documents which were issued by the Rajas of those days. And the families are taking care of the distribution of work and dividing the rights among the new generation. And it is so beautifully done at the community level. And yet they have nothing in this rehabilitation policy, nothing.
Now in this situation therefore, if anyone asks if the community is engaged in the development process, we have so much to offer, so much. We have the small micro hydel project in Belgaon and do you know that Swadesh film was basically based on that.
Gowarikar took pains to study and solve. And this kind of Mohhammad Tuglaq kind of experiment of taking water from one end of a state to the other end is boasted as inter-river transfer. This has become an outdated technology across the world. In places including the USA and others they should know that they have declared a moratorium on the big programme. And they are actually destroying the dams, you know demolishing those.
Anuradha SenGupta: Medha tai, I am going to ask you to keep the technicalities aside for a minute. Do you remember you had written a poem in Marathi about the river and life?
Medha Patkar: Yeah.
Anuradha SenGupta: Do you remember anything of it?
Medha Patkar: Chulhe ko lakri aur pet ko jowar, yehi hum chahate hai lekin ab dam aaya aur ab hamaara sab doob gaaya. This dam is big in its name you know, Kisi ko bijli aur kisi ko irrigation. And that dam has come, we have got tears in our eyes. Eyes full of water, that's all.
Anuradha SenGupta: Patkar is very much at home here. The 52-year-old activist studied in Mumbai and later taught at the Tata Institute of Social sciences. Her first visit to the valley was as a consultant to the UNICEF.
When did you first come to the valley, and do you remember what is it that changed your life, so that you couldn't go back.
Medha Patkar: Oh yes. I remember every day and every moment of it. Only thing is that I don't have any time to write. Not even the time to reply back to certain questions sincere enough and allegations that are raised you know. We are thankful to all those who keep the controversy burning and the debate on because we are for genuinely a democratic debate on this development issues. But I remember that I was always working for, rural areas and it so happened that for seven years I had to work with the Bombay slums communities.
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Anuradha SenGupta: What made you give up that challenge and pick up this challenge?
Medha Patkar: Yes, I always wanted to go to the rural areas, because when one works in the slum communities, you know that they are not goondas, they are all the real workers who build any city and carry it forward. But they are considered as encroachers, slum dwellers and illegal occupiers. Their work is legal, their votes are legal, their residence is considered as illegal, so in that situation I felt very strongly that when these people are being ousted from the rural communities, whether it is for a dam or just because someone is a widow and the mother-in-law doesn't want her or because there's a drought or a flood. It is our duty to accommodate them because it's not only the poor who come to Bombay. You must have come to Bombay with your parents some years ago and so on and so forth.
Anuradha SenGupta: And it doesn't apply to us.
Medha Patkar: Yes, there's no cut-off date. You would get everything like cable , telephone connection in your door step only because of purchasing power. In this situation I felt I should go to the interiors. So once it was possible from my life point of view, I decided to go into the interiors.
Anuradha SenGupta: To understand what it is to be Medha Patkar, do we have to understand what it is to be with people who we have very little connection with when we live in the cities.
Medha Patkar: Actually you know, one thing is it's very awkward to talk about oneself, but otherwise also I think it's a non issue. Medha patkar is not an issue. Someone titled it Modi viruddha Medha. Oh who am I, I am not fighting with Narendra Modi as person you know. We are fighting with some ideology. Personification of an issue or a movement is really unfortunate because lakhs and lakhs of people as well as may full timers are working in the valley. Dipti is working on the court case, Sangeeta works on the life schools and everywhere you know, there are activists who have given up their jobs.
Anuradha SenGupta: You talked about the personification of the issue. Did you welcome actor Aamir Khan associating himself with your cause.
Medha Patkar: Oh yes. Every single artist or a citizen that really wants to support the cause, I should be welcoming.
Anuradha SenGupta: If you look at the media coverage, I know you were fasting then, you couldn't have seen it. The point is everyone was talking about Aamir Khan and not about the Narmada valley and the problem of its people. So, is that good and bad about celebrity association?
Medha Patkar: Then that also happens with the activist, as I said you know, there's no end to it. The society behaves like this. But the message is carried out as well.
Anuradha SenGupta: So the positive overrides the nagative?
Medha Patkar: Yes it does. The same thing was questioned about Arundhati Roy getting involved. She writes about nuclear weapons, Narmada or on Kashmir, it is the real life story you know, it's not fiction. And when she analyses, it's the best form of political analysis and her word power of course is enormous.
Anuradha SenGupta: What about the contradictory images that come across, for instance when the Supreme Court decision came you had Arundhati Roy very devastated with the decision and on the other hand Aamir Khan was welcoming the decision. So which suggested that one person had a certain understanding of the issue and the other had another understanding of the issue. Is it harmful for the issue itself?
Medha Patkar: When Arundhati gave her statement, it was half of the SC's statement that she had heard. And the media and the press immediately went to her for the reaction, which was shown for few more days. Same thing happened with Aamir Khan, I know this because I was shifted to a room where there was a TV, and otherwise I never watch TV. But that day I could. So Mr Modi on his fast, immediately announced withdrawal of the fast in the middle and he said that the demand of the Andolan were rejected hence Gujarat has won. Now that whole situation changed after the court, heard our advocate Shanti Bhushanji and others and that never came on TV for a few days, just a line maybe. Aamir Khan's position was not totally against Arundhati's.
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Anuradha SenGupta: Not against, just different understandings of the same issue isn't it.
Medha Patkar: No, it was the different angles that came through. Arundhati had said that, SC didn't take a position, which it should have taken but Aamir Khan is saying SC is saying that within three months rehabilitation should be completed, which it did not. But that was the impression given by the media.
It was the Solicitor General of the UPA government who said before the SC that they think and they have been told that in three months the rehabilitation will be completed. But if it is not completed by the August, then let the work on the dam be stopped and the communities be resettled. But both of that are illegal solutions, let me tell you. Aamir Khan also has taken it up as a challenge by saying that he would wait and watch what is happening. And hence we have invited him to the valley as well. So if Gujarat is briefing him, then let him understand it through all angles. We are transparent and open.
Anuradha SenGupta: You are happy as long as the issue remains in the forum of the public debate. In people's minds for discussion.
Medha Patkar: No it's not just that. I am not a media person. We want a solution, which will be permanent, sustainable and equitable resource management in this country.
Anuradha SenGupta: Will this attention help you to reach towards your solution?
Medha Patkar: We are very thankful to Dia Mirza, too, because she took a position based on her understanding. And you always believe me that the officials and the politicians know much less sometimes than the actors or the writers. But then that is not true for every official or politician and for every actor or writer.
Anuradha SenGupta: We are going across to Ekalbara next and Patkar’s agenda is the same. Keep the spirits up and the commitment strong. There are two more villages to go - Chikardhar and Bheelkhera before Badhvani where a torch light rally is planned through the town.
When we reached Chota Parda it was way past 12 and you asked me "how are you holding up?" I looked around and said that I should be the one asking this question to you. Is that the motivation behind you? Is that where you get the confidence?
Medha Patkar Yes. If you are confident in what you are doing without being arrogant. You are humble because you know you are just a dot on the large canvass, like a single drop in an ocean, you can be sure that the goal you are fighting for is the goal which humanity should reach. If not in this generation then in some other generation may be.
Anuradha SenGupta: After seeing a lot of failures, despair, and people in deprivation do activists loose all their sense of humour?
Medha Patkar No. This is not true. I also get angry a lot of times. I'm becoming a very short-tempered person. I'm short tempered when the cause of work is not perfect. I'm a macro managing kind of person. But that is all very personal. Every one has his own strength and weaknesses.
Anuradha SenGupta: How do you hang on to your sense of humour when you are confronted with what you are confronted with?
Medha Patkar Let me first talk about my colleagues. My colleagues also work day and night with me. Many of them come from adivasi and Dalit families who do not have enough means to support themselves. They only get a meager sum of Rs.1000 -1500 depending upon their marital status. If they are married they get 1500 and those who are unmarried get only Rs.1000. Others like me who come from better off families do not even accept that honorarium. We cover expenses from our family. My mother gets pension and shares it with me. My brother gives donations.
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Anuradha SenGupta: When was the last time you heard your voice and it was not hoarse?
Medha Patkar I don’t remember really. But the strength in the words of the people is increasing. I guess that is what matters.
Anuradha SenGupta: You have a slogan which says,'vikas chahiye vinash nahin'
What do you want to tell people who believe that you are holding up developments and tax payers money because costs for building the Sardar Sarovar dam have inflated over the past 20 years.
Medha Patkar We have always been saying , for example this water in Narmada does not come directly. It comes from a large catchments and that is where it should be stopped and caught. Catch the catchments and that is the best technology of water management. In every sector we are proposing the best technology without causing much displacement and minimum destruction. This is what we should opt for. If they could see what is destruction like they would have realised the same. Youth have so many opportunities here for adventure, for joining the common people, fror raising their voice for struggle as well as reconstructive work.
Anuradha SenGupta: Patkar has resorted to fasts often in the past 20 years. Her last one was 20 days long and was started to protest the decision to raise the Sardar Sarover Dam.
You are a veteran faster. What happens after you have called for fast? How does your body reacts? It is very difficult isn’t it?
Medha Patkar It is difficult but somehow after every fast, which has been the last resort in a given phase of the moment, only when one comes to a conclusion that now it cannot work without it, no channel is really approachable and there seems no recognition for the voice of justice then you resort to that. It is not a superficial tactics as such. Normally it has happened that that phase is very hectic preceding the fast. You work very hard and you are tired, and strained. And when you end it you find something has resulted out of it, which makes you run immediately after that.
Anuradha SenGupta: When do you become so weak that you don’t realise what is happening? You lapsed into a state of semi-consciousness.
Medha Patkar That happens after four-five days and now a days with my age and weak body, it starts quite early also. Last time when I was in Bombay at the gates of the Mantralaya, it was very torturous. In a few days because of vomiting and other problems, it was not possible for me to take it.
Anuradha SenGupta: After you called off the fast this time was there anything that you wanted to eat or is that all far off from your mind?
Medha Patkar Actually even if you feel like taking something like tomato soup or paanipuri you soon realise that your body cannot take it. So for many days you have to remain more or less on similar kind of stuff like Nimbu Paani or khichhdi.
Anuradha SenGupta: Your critics have accused you of manipulating the media. Do you think the media especially in the last 10 odd years from 1994-95 onwards when the news channels started coming into place there is more interest in the cause and therefore more support from people?
Medha Patkar We don’t run after the media but we don’t even ignore them.
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Anuradha SenGupta: But you need media because it is the information that you need to disseminate through them.
Medha Patkar They play a valuable role and that role has to be played with full sensitivity and commitment and not without that. I would personally like it to be non-personifying and really bringing out the true face of the moment, which is the face of the advisis and the farmers. There are ups and downs. It is not so easy.
Anuradha SenGupta: But its much better than when there was only Doordarshan and one or two documentaries that were being made. Isn’t it better now ? You have got to admit it.
Medha Patkar See, the number of channels growing is expanding the telecommunications, and that is appreciable. But at the same time every thing that has changed is not hundred per cent good. Sometimes it goes against our cause because it is also spreading the news about various other things. The consumerist lifestyle, the foreign products, the message that is spread through so many channels with glaring faces is bringing in more and more displacement.
Anuradha SenGupta: In about a couple of hours from now you are holding a massive rally in Badauni which is essentially a show of strength for your movement, isn’t it?
Medha Patkar Not just a show of strength but also show of commitment, and its also a pledge taking because all of them cannot reach Delhi or Mumbai. That is too costly. We have no railway line to go doing zindabad on free train tickets.
Anuradha SenGupta: In some of these villages that you have been visiting there are some people who have accepted what the government has given. There are people who followed the NBA, who have not accepted what the government has given and you may need to pressurise the government to ensure that they don’t get left out because they followed you. Is that correct?
Medha Patkar It is not like that. Those who were compelled in a way, through their own pressures inside or outside to accept what was an illegal offer without waiting and claiming the right to the legal offer even of rehabilitation are in a way cheated. And hence they know that they cannot survive with that meager cash.
It is about three years income of a farmer that is being offered to him for a lifetime livelihood. So it is complex but it is not that complex because the government has cheated some people and that they do in every situation in every other dam project.
And that is why we look forward to highest authorities in this country, highest offices of power including the president who should have intervened by now because this is all the scheduled tribe area. There is a clear law without consulting aam sabha that they cannot acquire land and they cannot even claim till rehabilitation is complete.
Anuradha SenGupta: After more than 20 years of struggle do you think the glass is half full or half empty? More successes or more challenges?
Medha Patkar Rather we are not looking at one single glass, we are looking at so many glasses and so many reflections all around and we are all in a hurry not only to fill the glass but to satiate the thirst of everyone in this country.
Anuradha SenGupta: We wish more power to the peoples movement. It is dusk in Badauni when we reach. Except for the stray supporter it doesn’t look like that too many people will make it. And then they come. They have a voice and they will be heard.
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