Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. My guest today stands at the centre of many controversies. As a spokesman for his party, he has to often defend its difficult decisions and as a man accused of being a fixture or dalal and a middleman, he has to face up to those accusations. Here is to talk about all these things is the General Secretary of Samajwadi Party, Rajya Sabha MP Amar Singh.
Mr Amar Singh, let's start with Mehboob Ali, the Minister of State for Backward Classes Welfare in your party's government in Uttar Pradesh. On Wednesday, the whole country saw him agreeing to be a drug trafficker in return for Rs 20 lakhs. As the General Secretary of the party, how embarrassed are you?
Amar Singh: See, there are two aspects to this. There is a general degeneration in public life and nobody can deny this.
Karan Thapar: And Mehboob Ali reflects that degeneration?
Amar Singh: Let me say that in a lot of incidents of this kind, they don't actually mean what they say. Particularly a typecast in UP and Bihar, they are bawdy and they speak aloud. That doesn't mean I am defending the indefensible.
Karan Thapar: Can I just clarify if you are saying that Mehboob Ali didn't mean what he said?
Amar Singh: No, No. I am not saying that he didn't mean what he said. But it might be so, because in his frivolous statements, he has also mentioned about another colleague and he said that he does that.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely, Beni Prasad Verma's son.
Amar Singh: Absolutely. But I don't believe this considering Beni Prasad Verma's stature.
Karan Thapar: In which case, why has he not denied or clarified or put on record what he meant?
Amar Singh: Thank God, he has not said this about me and Mulayam Singh. Because if he could say this about Beni Prasad Verma's son, he could have said this about me too.
Karan Thapar: In which case, let's come back to my question. How embarrassed are you by this behaviour?
Amar Singh: No, not only we. The BJP, BSP and also this fellow.
Karan Thapar: Mr Amar Singh, I am talking you, the General Secretary of Samajwadi Party.
Amar Singh: Please let me tell you all of us are embarrassed. Even a former chief minister of Congress in Goa, he is also caught in a sting operation.
Karan Thapar: But let's come back to Samajwadi Party. People are listening to you. They know you as a man of honour. That's why they want to hear you as General Secretary to express your embarrassment. Are you embarrassed or not?
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Amar Singh: Any sensible person is not going to be elated with what has happened. And at the local level, we are making enquiries and we want to make a foolproof case before taking any action. We don't want to send a wrong signal.
I will tell you the reason. They have left a political setup and joined our setup. So, we don't want to send out a signal that we are giving them step-motherly treatment. After this shocking revelations, we are finding the total foolproof information at the local level to make sure a concrete and decisive action and roadmap is chalked out not only for this persons, but any other things of this kind, if it happens in the future.
Karan Thapar: Except that to many people it looks instead of trying to be fair, you are trying to cover up. You are trying to defend.
Amar Singh: Well, I have not made any statement of this kind.
Karan Thapar: Mulayam Singh Yadav seems to say that in fact the bribe-giver is as guilty as bribe taker. He attacked the channel specifically for doing the sting operation. To many people, it does look as if you are covering up Mehboob Ali.
Amar Singh: I am not covering up Mehboob Ali. But definitely this kind of sting operation where people are lured, everybody is not Amar Singh, everybody is not Karan Thapar. Somebody is going with moneybag and all that ...
Karan Thapar: Can I put this to you? Your Parliamentary Party leader Ram Gopal Yadav said that Mehboob Ali should have resigned immediately. Your fellow General Secretary Shahid Siddique said that he should be sacked in 24 hours. Your ally Ajit Singh said he should be expelled from Uttar Pradesh Assembly. Yet, Mulayam Singh Yadav is saying something very different. He is giving the man time. He seems to be suggesting that the channel is responsible.
He seems to be making excuses for the minister's behaviour. Is Mulayam Singh Yadav taking a different line to that of everyone else?
Amar Singh: No, not at all. He has taken a matured stand. There are so many things in politics to be looked into. And I am telling you as someone who is in the know of things that he is not going to defend the indefensible.
Karan Thapar: He is not going to defend the indefensible. That's a promise you are making?
Amar Singh: Yes, a promise I am making.
Karan Thapar: Let's now talk about another minister from the UP Government - Yaqub Querashi, the Haj Minister. Yesterday, he announced a reward of Rs 51 crore for the assassination of the Danish cartoonist who made cartoons of Prophet Mohammad. Do you defend that?
Amar Singh: I don't defend that. I don't attack that for two reasons. Everybody's sensibility is of altogether different levels. If I have to protest, I will never say this kind of things.
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Karan Thapar: And the second reason for not attack it?
Amar Singh: The second reason for not attacking it is because he doesn't have the capacity to give a reward of Rs 51 crore.
Karan Thapar: Maybe, but it is still incitement to murder.
Amar Singh: No. He is not an Ayatollah Khomeini that his statement would have that far-reaching ramifications.
Karan Thapar: That maybe a possible factor that make the man look like a fool. But nonetheless, he is guilty of incitement to murder. That is a crime.
Amar Singh: No, that is more than a crime.
Karan Thapar: More that a crime, you agree?
Amar Singh: No, no. More than a crime it is the frivolous statement given in an emotional tone. And it is reflective of the hurt sentiments of the minorities.
Karan Thapar: Once again you seem to be finding excuses and covering up for the man rather than saying that this is indefensible behaviour.
Amar Singh: No, I won't say it is indefensible behaviour. It is irresponsible behaviour.
Karan Thapar: Mr Amar Singh, you have two ministers - one admits to being a drug trafficker and accepting money for drug trafficking, a crime - and a second incites to murder, another crime. They continue as ministers. What message is the SP sending to the people of India?
Amar Singh: No, as I told you anything that is pertaining to corruption and indefensible will not be defended.
Karan Thapar: In which case, get rid of these gentlemen.
Amar Singh: We have set the agenda, let us do whatever we can do.
Karan Thapar: You are giving me at least an assurance, it seems, that in due course these gentlemen will be removed. You may have to go through an enquiry to be fair, but afterwards they will be removed.
Amar Singh: I am not saying that they will be removed.
Karan Thapar: The honour of your party is stake. Does it not matter to you?
Amar Singh: It is my party and I have to protect my honour. I agree with you. But you are not the chairman of my parliamentary board. I don't have to commit to you. But through you, I am committing to the people of this country with whom I am interacting that we will most certainly not defend the indefensible and my party is not going to disappoint them. Please believe me.
Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you what Raj Babbar has said: "The Samajwadi Party once projected the legacy of Mahatma Gandhi, Ram Manohar Lohia and JP Narayan. Today, it is the face of dalali. I put it to you that your response to Mehboob Ali and Yaqub Querashi seems to prove Raj Babbar correct.
Amar Singh: I don’t want to comment on my erstwhile colleague. He is a good friend of mine. And he has spent quite a considerable time in this party. And he is my senior in the party. He is still a suspended member and the party has responded to it. And the people of Uttar Pradesh will respond to this kind of accusations.
Karan Thapar: So you say. Let me point out to you that Raj Babbar publicly holds you personally responsible. He says you have introduced middleman culture in the party. He says Amar Singh is not only a dalal, but also a fixture and that makes him worse than a dalal.
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Amar Singh: I am not going to be provoked come what may. And I am not going to respond. If he has got any proof, he should come out with it.
Karan Thapar: He says you are responsible for giving the party a bad name. he says you are sullying the image of the leader. He says you are alienating genuine leaders and party workers.
Amar Singh: Some party leaders should say that. He should have got lot of support from the party rank and file. He shouldn't have fought a lonely battle. And even then, I wish him well.
Karan Thapar: He has a lot of support in Agra, his constituency. They have come out in support of him.
Amar Singh: Well, I have also, the party has also got a lot of support.
Karan Thapar: Except that he is leveling charges against you that affect your integrity, affect your reputation. Let me point out he goes much further. He has accused you of criminalising the SP. Let me quote, "This is leading to criminaliation of politics. As money doesn't buy people's vote, but criminals and vested interests do. Mehboob ALi and Yaqub Querashi seem to prove his point.
Amar Singh: Mehboob Ali and Yaqub Querashi - they were in BSP and from there they have come to my party. They are in the party, but they are not identified with me. And I am not responding to this gentleman's charges, because I don't want to. But I am telling you very frankly people who know me, people who are in the knowledge of my working style, they all know.
Even in Quattrochhi's case, when the Additional Solicitor General goes, the party shows where the inclination is. And as for the dalali charges are concerned, let me tell you who has got 150 serials for Maharaja Ranjit Singh? What is this? I have not sought any favours from the government so far.
Karan Thapar: You are saying that Raj Babbar sought favours from the Government for the serials he has got?
Amar Singh: I am not saying anything about individuals. I have read in the newspapers. And Karan, if I would have known that you have come here to interview me about a friend, my ex-colleague, I won't have given this interview.
Karan Thapar: Except the fact that your friend, I am interested that you call him your friend, he says of you that you can be bought for Rs 5 crore.
Amar Singh: He has said the same thing about Amitabh Bachchan. He has said the same thing about Rajib Gandhi. He has said that the house of Amitabh Bachchan in Juhu, Pratiksha, is a fear fax home.
Karan Thapar: He says you have given money to Bill Clinton which is deposited in the United States. Is that correct?
Amar Singh: Ask Bill Clinton. he is going to be in town. These are the frivolous charges. Thank God, he hasn't said I have given money to George Bush.
Karan Thapar: He is attacking your personal integrity. Let me quote: "How has this small broker, fixture, who lived on a small brokerage, made so much money?"
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Amar Singh: Well, I don't know. Everybody coming from the humble background is entitled to grow in life. I wish him all the best. I am not questioning how come he has got 150 serials for Maharaja Ranjit Singh from Doordarshan.
Karan Thapar: Are you embarrased that your friend as you keep calling him, your erstwhile colleague, a man who is senior to you in the party, is leveling these accusations against your integrity?
Amar Singh: In politics, enemies are enemies and friends are jealous. I am sad. I am not angry, I am hurt.
Karan Thapar: All right. Let's put Raj Babbar aside. the truth of the matter is you don't fit comfortably into the socialist tradition of Samajwadi Party. In fact, you are a socialite, not a socialist.
Amar Singh: If this is a perception, it might be correct. I am not seen on Page 3 and I am not attending any parties.
Even on my last birthday, I went to the temple and I prayed for the peace and tranquility of my family. And I donated Rs 50 lakhs for tribal welfare.
Karan Thapar: Something most socialists are not in a position to do. They don't have Rs 50 lakhs to donate, you see you are approving my point.
Amar Singh: Well, there are a lot of hardcore Marxists, they have studied abroad and they pay huge income tax. Socialist have something to do with ideology, it has nothing to do with your personal success and your wealth.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely. It has everything to do with ideology. Let me quote to you what Jnaneswar Mishra says. Speaking to The Indian Express on February 13, he says Amar Singh's gaiety and mannerisms are alien to Samajwadi Party's tradition.
Amar Singh: This is wrongly reported.
Karan Thapar: How do you know? Well, he hasn't corrected it.
Amar Singh: There is no need to correct my erstwhile colleague and friend's version.
Karan Thapar: But he should have corrected it himself.
Amar Singh: You go and ask him. He will correct it. But he is not going to do it on his own. What he said I am telling you. It was said I am very angry and I am very volatile and I am very aggressive. He said he was in Congress. He has come from there. He has learnt some trick of the trade from here and there.
Karan Thapar: My point entirely. you don't fit comfortably into the traditions of Samajwadi Party. That's exactly what he is saying.
Amar Singh: Well, that is for me to decide Karan. I am comfortable that is why I am here consistently. And I am not leaving the party.
Karan Thapar: Can I put this to you. And I am saying this with a big smile on my face, I don't want to offend you. Let's look at the facts. You wear Cartier specs, diamond rings, Rolex watches. You use French perfume. You are proud of your expensive foreign cars. You fraternise with Hollywood stars and rich industrialists. What sort of socialism is that?
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Amar Singh: Oh, that kind of socialists even Rajiv Gandhi used to be - he used Mont Blanc pen. Cartier glasses, they are not costly.
Karan Thapar: The best thing one can say is that both of you are hypocritical socialists. But that doesn't improve the position of you.
Amar Singh: No. I am very sorry. I pay my income tax, which is a huge amount. At the best, my accountability should be whatever I am affording, whatever I can afford, whether it is affordable for me. There is declared sources of income or not, that can be questioned.
But if I wear my Cartier glasses or wear a diamond ring, it is nobody's business. And if I use them, I am not exploiting anybody or I am not cheating anybody.
Karan Thapar: In other words, you are an honest man.
Amar Singh: I am not a dishonest man.
Karan Thapar: In other words, what you are saying is I have wealth I have enjoyed. And if others don't like it, it's too bad for them.
Amar Singh: No, I am not saying this. I have got wealth. I live within my means. And I don’t want to flaunt it. That is why I didn't host a party where friends like you used to be invited. I have stopped doing all this.
Karan Thapar: Let's not talk about your wealth. Let's talk about something else that the press criticises - your lack of discretion, your lack of proportion. They say even when Amar Singh is in a problem, as he was when his phone was tapped, he creates a tamasha and then he start apologising for the things that he said.
Amar Singh: That is not correct. I didn't create any tamasha. Karan, if your phone is tapped for three months, and your privacy is invaded, even you will lose your balance.
Karan Thapar: You lost your balance, you admit it?
Amar Singh: No. I was definitely very angry and upset.
Karan Thapar: Did you do things that you now regret?
Amar Singh: No, I don't regret anything. There was only one statement of the Prime Minister, where he sounded hurt.
Karan Thapar: And you apologised?
Amar Singh: Of course. Too err is human. And you apologised for something with which you caused agony to somebody.
Karan Thapar: There was another statement that you made about Sonia Gandhi. You said that she was responsible, In fact, your phrase was she produced and directed everything from 10, Janpath.
Secondly, you said that she was in possession of 60 tapes of other political leaders' phone conversation, which had been tapped. And then you went out to say I am scared to talk to my wife in my bedroom for fear that Sonia aunty is listening. You had no proof of this. Yet you said all of this.
Amar Singh: My senior colleague, erstwhile colleague, who is saying that I have given money to someone as big as Bill Clinton and it is deposited in US accounts. has he got any proof?
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Karan Thapar: Just as Raj Babbar was wrong in accusing you, do you accept that you were wrong in accusing Sonia? Do you owe Sonia Gandhi an apology?
Amar Singh: No, let me complete. My source who informed me of Soniaji's implication in the entire tapping, he proved to be categorically correct.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that Jnaneswar Mishra publicly said that you had no basis to drag Sonia's name without proof.
Amar Singh: My president Mulayam Singh Yadav supported and endorsed my statement. The entire party supported and endorsed my statement. And there is circumstantial evidence to prove that my accusation is correct.
Karan Thapar: Against Sonia?
Amar Singh: Against Sonia, and against the Congress headed by Sonia.
Karan Thapar: So, once again you are repeating the accusation, you are not withdrawing them?
Amar Singh: No, I am not withdrawing. Even in the Supreme Court.
Karan Thapar: You stand by everything you said against Sonia Gandhi?
Amar Singh: I stand by it for one reason only. And the reason is that the person who informed me about the whole incident has proved to be correct. For the first time in India, telephone tapping is proved.
Karan Thapar: You are saying to me that Sonia Gandhi produced and directed the telephone tapping from 10, Janpath?
Amar Singh: Not in so many words.
Karan Thapar: That's what you said. On 6th January to PTI, your precise words were the whole thing was produced and directed from 10, Janpath.
Amar Singh: I was definitely anguished.
Karan Thapar: So, you are withdrawing this?
Amar Singh: No, I am not withdrawing. The words were harsh. Today, I am little saner because the Supreme Court has taken cognizance of the whole thing.
Karan Thapar: Mr Amar Singh, are you your own enemy?
Amar Singh: Maybe! I will have to learn a lot. I don’t disagree with you. That is why I am keeping quiet and I was not in a mode to give an interview even to you.
Karan Thapar: Mr Amar Singh, on Wednesday your party's parliamentary board decided that if India votes against Iran for a third time at the IAEA on the 6th of March, you will move a no-confidence motion against the UPA Government. Is that a firm decision or could you change your mind?
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Amar Singh: It is not a rhetoric. And for the cause of secular cause and value, we have been giving support to this Government.
Karan Thapar: You are committed to moving a vote of no-confidence if India votes against Iran for a third time?
Amar Singh: Of course, most certainly.
Karan Thapar: In which case, let's talk about why your party is angry with the UPA over the Iran issue. Mulayam Singh Yadav describes Iran as a time-tested friend. He says countries like Iran have always stood by India on the Kashmir issue. But he is wrong. The facts are quite the other way around. Iran has supported Pakistan, not India.
Amar Singh:No, our information is that at certain forum, Iran has supported India as well.
Karan Thapar: No. Let me itemise the extent to which Iran has supported Pakistan. In 1765, Iran supplied military equipment and planes to Pakistan during the war. It did again in 1971. It did in between. Iran has often voted with Pakistan at the Organisation of Islamic Countries on the Kashmir issue. Iran didn't support India over Pokhran-II. Iran didn't condemn the attack on Parliament in December 2001 when you were sitting inside the Parliament and it doesn't support India's bid for a seat at the UN Security Council. So, how is Iran a time-tested friend?
Amar Singh: But how is US a time-tested friend?
Karan Thapar: Maybe not. Iran was identified by your leader as a time-tested friend. I just proved that if anything, Iran is a friend of Pakistan, not India.
Amar Singh:No, it's a matter of debate and a matter of perception.
Karan Thapar: It's a matter of fact.
Amar Singh:No, Mulayam Singh Yadav is not an ordinary man. He may have said it out of certain basis or the entire Left is wrong.
Karan Thapar: But he has got his facts wrong.
Amar Singh: The entire Left is wrong. Mulayam Singh Yadav is wrong. George Fernandes is wrong and Telegu Desam Party's Chief Chandrababu Naidu is wrong. And only Manmohan Singhji and Soniaji are correct. The country is sharply divided. There is no consensus.
And if your facts are correct, like Dr Manmohan Singhji's facts and Sonia Gandhi's facts, then they should have organised an all-party meet and they should have placed the facts and they should have tried to carry the entire leadership of the country on such sensitive issue with them.
Karan Thapar: If the Government had organised an all-party meet and spoken to all of you before they actually took the vote at the IAEA, are you suggesting that you might have reacted differently?
Amar Singh: See, on any such issue even in a country like America, the Republicans and the Democrats all collect and they decide jointly.
Karan Thapar: Your ego is hurt that the Government didn't consult you first.
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Amar Singh: It's not a question of ego. It's a question of facts. What Manmohan Singhji is talking in Parliament now is after tremendous pressure.
Karan Thapar: It should have been said to the political parties beforehand.
Amar Singh:Of course.
Karan Thapar: In other words, there is a proper way of doing things which Dr Manmohan Singh didn't observe.
Amar Singh: That is absolutely correct.
Karan Thapar: You are saying there is a propriety in this matter which the government didn't observe?
Amar Singh:For small matters, even the Vajpayee Government used to call all of us and discuss. And even I remember when the plane hijacking took place, Soniaji and myself - all of us - were called to PM's residence.
Karan Thapar: Dr Manmohan Singh should have followed that precedent?
Amar Singh: Any Government, tomorrow anybody might come. Democracy is not this. Forget about that precedent. Parties which are supporting the UPA - parties like CPM, Mr Prakash Karat told me that he read about the decision in newspapers.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that Mr Mulayam Singh Yadav has gone a lot further. My Yadav has also said that by voting against Iran at the IAEA, India has acted against the spirit of non-alignment. Now, once again, his facts are completely wrong. There are 16 non-aligned countries in IAEA, eight i.e. 50 per cent, the single largest block, voted against Iran.
Amar Singh: Again Karan, it is a matter of perception.
Karan Thapar: It is a not a matter of perception. It's a matter of fact.
Amar Singh: It is. Non-alignment means that aligned to none. At least India, even BJP, has said the way the support is rendered, the vote is rendered to Iran is wrong. So Mr L K Advani is wrong. Prakash Karat is wrong. George Fernandes is wrong, A B Bardhan is wrong. Mulayam Singh Yadav is wrong.
Karan Thapar: It seems to me that even if you decided that you are going to move a vote of no-confidence against the government and it does not matter to you that your whole basis is based upon incorrect, wrong facts.
Amar Singh: It is a charge. I simply say there is a lot of communication gap and it is for the party in power to convince their rivals, opposition as well as their own partners and on that front the Government of India headed by Dr Manmohan Singh and guided by Sonia Gandhi has utterly failed.
Karan Thapar: If Dr Manmohan Singh between now and the 6th of March, were to call Mr Mulayam Singh Yadav and personally explain to him why India feels it may have to vote against Iran for a third time, would you then in those circumstances withdraw your vote of no-confidence?
Amar Singh: Well, he is saying that the Left should behave, they should not do dadagiri. This kind of statements have come, which is uncalled for.
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Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that the Left does not support your vote of no-confidence. Let's leave the Left aside, let's talk about your party.
Amar Singh: On the 2nd of March, there is a joint protest which Left and Samajwadi Party will hold together. To say that the Left doesn't support is not correct.
Karan Thapar: They have publicly said that they will not be voting against the Government in any vote of no-confidence brought by your party.
Amar Singh:Karan Thapar: No, they have not said that. They have said 'we will wait till the 6th'. What will be the stand of the Government. They don't want to rock the boat for no rhyme or reason.
Karan Thapar: A sentiment that once upon a time you used to express as well.
You said that you are determined to ensure that communal forces are kept at bay. I will put it to you, this vote of no-confidence not only is meaningless because your facts are wrong, but it will strengthen the BJP and, therefore, make a mockery of your position as communal forces.
Amar Singh: Very funny. BJP led by Advaniji and UPA led by Sonia Gandhi, they are together on the same side. If we bring the no-confidence vote, they are going to support the Congress Government led by Sonia Gandhi.
Karan Thapar: Mr Amar Singh, you can't even bring a no-confidence motion without the support of the BJP allies JD-U. Your own 38 MPs are insufficient.
Amar Singh: Why Telegu Desam Party's six MPs.
Karan Thapar: Still insufficient. You need 50. Even with TDP, you are barely 44, minus Raj Babbar, it's 43.
Amar Singh: Lot of people are there.
Karan Thapar: JD-U?
Amar Singh: Yes, JD-U, okay.
Karan Thapar: And if your vote is not to be a mockery on the floor of the House, you probably need the BJP to support you.
Amar Singh: No, BJP is not going to support us, be clear about it. BJP is in support of Sonia Gandhi-led UPA.
Karan Thapar: So you are committed to this vote of no-confidence?
Amar Singh: I am not committed. If India votes against Iran, then only we will think about it.
Karan Thapar: Even if Dr Manmohan Singh personally comes and explains about it to Mulayam Singh Yadav, you still not change your position.
Amar Singh: Well, he is not likely to do that.
Karan Thapar: But if he does?
Amar Singh: This is a hypothetical question. I am not compelled to reply to that.
Karan Thapar: But you are leaving open a small window of opportunity?
Amar Singh: Why window. I am leaving a big gate of opportunity open. But the gate is always open for us and Congress dogma always closes that.
Karan Thapar: Mr Amar Singh, a pleasure talking to you on Devil's Advocate.
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